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Standard Expiration Dates

By: Tess Prior

Our church is a church of standards. Ideals. I love that it is. Since I was a young woman, I was taught to stick to my standards—abstain from all those things that we should abstain from and do all those things we should do. Of all our standards, it seems that at that age I heard the most about the importance of temple marriage. It is temple marriage that concerns me most this evening and has me wondering whether we, as a community, put an expiration date on this particular standard…

An acquaintance of mine got engaged recently. She’s in her early thirties and is, I believe, everything that a Mormon woman should be.  Her fiancé, an equally wonderful individual, is not LDS. He is, however, fully supportive of her faith and beliefs and frequently attends Sunday services with her. They are a great match and, I have no doubt, will build a wonderful family together. This acquaintance, upon announcing her decision to marry a non-LDS man, was hurt by her ward’s response to the news. Rather than congratulating her, many sisters said things like, “Well, I guess that’s great. You’re at the age when it’s okay to marry someone of a different faith.” If this young woman felt as though she was marrying beneath her simply because her biological clock was ticking, I think it would have been an unfortunate match indeed. Fortunately, she did not feel this way. In fact, she told me that were she 20 and had met this man, she would have married him at that point in her life.

It occurred to me that for the sake of the good non-LDS men who marry the good LDS women out there (and vice-versa) something needs to be made clear: the decision to marry an individual of a different faith must be made for ourselves when we enter the dating world. It must be something that we decide when we are young, and it cannot be something that we see as being “less” than the alternative. Otherwise, how can these interfaith marriages ever hope to be successful with the I-settled-for-you-because-of-fill-in-the-blank factor lurking in the subconscious?  I believe that this is something that we must address as a community. Now, I recognize that the apostles will most likely not be preaching this from the pulpit anytime soon. But, for the sake of the great non-LDS people who marry equally great LDS people, I wish they would.

Print | posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 9:09 PM | Filed Under [ Tess Prior ]

Comments:

#1: The Baron

I think this is just one part of a much larger whole: ANY marriage--regardless of religious beliefs--has the potential of having subconscious 'I-settled-for-you-even-though-I-really-wanted-X' thoughts. Any person when considering potential mates has to create a personal list of:
1) Things I absolutely must have
2) Things that aren't ideal but I'm willing to accept
3) Things that are not acceptable under any circumstances

(1) and (3) items make eliminating 'unsuitable' people easier since they're strict, but the trickier part is the (2) items: okay, maybe you *really* wanted to marry a doctor or lawyer, but perhaps will consider settling for a plumber who still has all of your 1's and none of the 3's. But...there's still the potential that after marrying him you could think every once in a while, "I wonder...if I had just waited a little longer, maybe my doctor would have shown up."

Sure, most guys would probably say they *want* a righteous girl...who's also gorgeous, a good cook, comes from a wealthy family, loves watching football and giving back massages. Usually, they will 'settle' for something less. Doesn't mean some guys won't still wonder "If I had just waited a little longer...who knows what girl would have come around next". The good guys, though, will be perfectly content with who they have and won't constantly pine for something 'better'.

Since there are no perfect people, nor perfect marriages, any marriage is subject to second-guessing...if either party is of the mind to do so. I think it goes back to the 'keep your eyes open before marriage, half-shut after marriage' philosophy. If marrying a non-member is a (2) rather than a (3) for some, then so be it. But, like all (2)'s whether related to religion or not, it will always be subject to second-guessing, if they are the type of person to do so...

9/17/2007 8:29 AM

#2: Eric Nielson

For many people, there does come a time to do the best you can in the situation you are in.
9/17/2007 9:39 AM

#3: Belladonna

Tess;
One of the issues I see as central to the scenario you present is sorting out what is a commandment and what is a strong suggestion in terms of how we live our lives in the Gospel.
For example, young men are ENCOURAGED to obtain the rank of Eagle Scout, but they are not breaking any commandment if they don't do that. There is plenty of evidence that those who do earn their Eagle are more likely to serve missions and to be generally successful in life. However, no one I know would suggest failing to make Eagle qualifies as "sin". Nevertheless, it may be a disappointment in a family that is strong on scouting if a son doesn't go on to get it, even though they recognize he can still do all sorts of positive and righteous things.
Commandments on the other hand, like paying tithing, observing the word of wisdom or being morally clean are things that are expected of everyone. Yet even knowing that, we recognize that many otherwise "good” people with generally strong testimonies of the church will not observe one or more of these laws. We still love them, we still support them. But there is often a sense of disappointment and loss when someone we care about lapses in any of these key ways, because we want the best for them and we recognize that this puts a barrier between them and the blessings of God.
The question in my mind with the scenario you presented is whether temple marriage is a strong suggestion as something that would be good for us (a more sacred version of earning an Eagle rank or eating Broccoli) or if it is a commandment that God expects from everyone . After reading your posting I asked a few different people what they thought. The answers I got were almost an even split.
While we all acknowledge that a person can be righteous and temple worthy while married to a non-member, it is also quite clear that without "the new and everlasting covenant" that is eternal marriage we cannot enter the highest kingdom of God. So I do not find it surprising that there would be some degree of reservation or disappointment among ward members when hearing that someone they cared about was (at least for now) closing that door by marrying out of the church. That's not to say that the guy she is marrying is not a wonderful person or that they won't have a fabulous life together. But it will more than likely be a different kind of union than one in which both partners put covenants with God as a priority.
I think it was very tactless and generally unkind for people to make remarks that infer she was settling for less. But I do understand why they would think that was the case. For those who have a deep respect for temple marriage, any marriage without it IS “less”, even if marrying a member of the church.
While it is obvious that temple covenants are no guarantee of a good or lasting marriage, they do offer the sacred possibility of something that cannot be obtained any other way.
The question that your posting brought up for me more than anything else wasn’t about marriage at all…but to ask myself what is the proper response LDS people should have to ANYONE who chooses to live by different priorities and values?
When we had the lesson in Relief Society on chastity 2 weeks ago we got into a rather heated debate on what the appropriate response was toward friends/family members who cohabitate and then that went on to talking about how we should respond to those in same sex relationships. There were two camps – “hate the sin but love the sinner” and “stand for truth at all times and oppose all evil.”
Please don’t misunderstand. I am in NO WAY implying that marrying a non member is a sin or that it in any way is parallel to a same sex relationship. I’m just saying that different people have different views about how we should respond to those who make choices counter to what the gospel teaches.
Some would argue that it might be better not to marry at all than to marry outside the church. I would not be one of those people.
But I do have reservations about the degree to which we allow ourselves to be accepting of sin in the name of tolerance or our desire to maintain positive relationships with others. This is a complicated issue for me.
Your closing paragraph is what I struggled with the most. You wrote:
It occurred to me that for the sake of the good non-LDS men who marry the good LDS women out there (and vice-versa) something needs to be made clear: the decision to marry an individual of a different faith must be made for ourselves when we enter the dating world. It must be something that we decide when we are young, and it cannot be something that we see as being “less” than the alternative. Otherwise, how can these interfaith marriages ever hope to be successful with the I-settled-for-you-because-of-fill-in-the-blank factor lurking in the subconscious? I believe that this is something that we must address as a community. Now, I recognize that the apostles will most likely not be preaching this from the pulpit anytime soon. But, for the sake of the great non-LDS people who marry equally great LDS people, I wish they would.
I disagree. I do not think that we should suggest temple marriage is optional and that any other marriage – in the church or out of the church – is just as good so long as you marry a good person. That would be a distortion. Are some inter-faith marriages BETTER than some temple marriages?? Absolutely! But that has more to do with how the individual players honor one another. I don’t think there is any question at all that what God wants for us ALL is to have righteous eternal marriages in which both spouses reverence and honor one another. That is what we should all strive for. Yes, we should be loving and supportive of those who do not have that blessing in their life. But I think it puts on dangerous spiritual ground when we say marriage without the sealing authority of the Priesthood is not less.
9/17/2007 10:18 PM

#4: Tanya

The only comment I have is from the life of my branch president many, many years ago. He had three daughters, two that married in the temple, on that did not, of those three marraiges, the two that failed were the temple marriages. They both ended in divorce. The daughter that married a non member, over time, and with patience was able to marry in the temple after her husband joined the church.

A marriage is not wrong if it is supported by God in sincere prayer. That is all I ask. If God approves of the union, it will be made right in time.
Otherwise I agree with Belladonna.
9/19/2007 6:00 PM

#5: Tess

Baron— You make a good point. I agree that regardless of religion, there can be a “what if” factor in a relationship. Fortunately, I find that whenever I’m in love, I come to cherish the things I never thought I wanted that I’ve suddenly found in a wonderful person. And perhaps that’s the key. When we stop working on loving someone and being grateful for them, we can slip into the “Maybe I could have had fill-in-the-blank.” And that’s a dangerous place to be.

Eric—The game of life is making the best out of what we have. Absolutely. There are two ways to approach it though—half full, half empty. What I’m saying is that since you never know what’s really going on in someone else’s relationship (especially in this example case), and it would have been much more helpful for these sisters to react with a half-full approach. But you’re right. Life is about making the very best of the situation in which we find ourselves.

Belladonna—I see and so appreciate where you’re coming from. And yes, we need celestial marriage to be able to have all the blessings which are promised to us. I in no way disagree with that nor do I want to take away from that with this post. I hope I didn’t. I guess that my frustration stems from people treating earthly marriages vs. celestial marriage as bad apple vs. good apple rather than orange vs. apple. I feel like they are different things. And yes, we all need to aspire to the apple. We all need it. Like you’ve said, I would just hope for more kindness from the community for those who choose these marriages.

Tanya—Amen. Absolutely I feel that the key in this (and every) situation is to be prayerful and to rely on that great gift of personal revelation.
9/20/2007 3:29 PM

#6: Stady Canton

My husband had a teacher once who taped six balloons up on the chalkboard and said they represented the marriages of LDS persons to someone outside the Church. One by one he popped them with a pin, explaining that only 1 in 6 such unions would ever lead to being sealed in the temple. I have no idea if his statistics are anywhere close to accurate--I just know its message was loud and clear.

I know I've read somewhere the opinion that we should be teaching the young women of the church to first rely on the Spirit and to lead lives where personal revelation can flow for any and all decisions, because that is something everyone needs to know regardless of marital status. (I also see how this would help in selecting a future husband). Sadly, the sisters who are single must come to terms with being 'incomplete' in other's eyes, probably as much as someone who eventually marries a good man outside of the Church.
9/21/2007 1:04 PM

#7: Ray

Two (competing) things:

1) SWK said that almost any righteous man and righteous woman can make a marriage work and be happy IF they are selfless and dedicated to each other - if they truly strive to become one. I believe that completely.

2) The best divorce stats available currently indicate the following estimates: temple marriage = 6%; non-temple, Mormon marriage = 20-24%; Christian marriage = 22-30%; Mormon/non-Mormon marriage = 38-40%. I don't know the percent for active Mormon/non-Mormon (don't know if it's ever been measured), but I think unrealistic expectations probably is a big factor in many of the inter-religious marriages. Too many (on both sides) probably think the religious difference won't be a big deal - or that the other one eventually will "get it" and convert. If someone who is temple worthy decides to marry outside the temple, I will support that person completely and NEVER express any negative sentiment, since it's that person's choice to make through the gift they have been given, but they need to know at the outset that they will have to focus more consciously than anyone else in order to make it work.
9/21/2007 9:26 PM

#8: Tess Prior

Stady-- "Sadly, the sisters who are single must come to terms with being 'incomplete' in others' eyes, probably as much as someone who eventually marries a good man outside of the Church." I believe that it is not the sinlge sisters who must come to terms with being 'incomplete' in the eyes of those around them; it is the ones wrongfully seeing them as 'incomplete' who must broaden their understanding to include the truth that God has a plan for each of us and not one of us has the same timeline.

Also, the balloon popping illustration may be based on a true statistic. However, I feel that I should point out that my friends who have married outside of the LDS chruch have not married these men expecting them to convert in this lifetime. I think people who enter into marriages expecting their partner to change are being unwise.

Ray--
Where did you get your 6% from? Even our prophet has said within the last 3 years that temple marriage divorce rate is approaching the national divorce rate...

I agree that it isn't our place to judge others' choices on this matter. And I completely agree that the only way to make a marriage work is for the two people involved to work on it day in, day out.
9/23/2007 4:31 PM

#9: Ray

Tess, all of the unbiased (from either side) data available on the web estimates about 6% for temple marriages. (3-7%) The overall divorce rate among members for *all* kinds of marriages is close to the national average (particularly since the member/non-member rate is so high), but even the most obviously biased numbers from truly "anti" sources I found when I looked at this put the temple marriage divorce rate at no higher than 13-17%.

The most statistically valid study was one that involved over 7,000 LDS members. They simply were asked if they had been married in the temple and if they had ever been divorced. That type of survey, if off statistically, would err on the side of *over-estimation* of temple divorce rate - since there could be any number of members who had been married in the temple AFTER a divorce from a previous *civil* marriage - who simply didn't understand the intent of the questions. That survey put the divorce rate at about 6%. It also was conducted 5-10 years ago, so the actual rate probably is a bit higher now - but I seriously doubt it has jumped more than a very few percentage points in that time.
9/23/2007 8:00 PM

#10: Tess Prior

Ray, Thanks for giving me more information. This is really helpful and I was not aware that the general LDS marriage figures were all types of LDS marriages.

And yes, while odds are always against inter-faith marriages, I believe that they can work—I am the product of a fabulous one (Mormon, non-religious) as is one of my best friends (Catholic, Jewish). Both parties going into such a marriage must have realistic expectations. I think the divorce rate comes from those who enter into these types of unions just banking on the “one day” factor. That’s something that should never be done.
9/24/2007 8:24 PM

#11: belladonna

A word on comparing divorce rates - these can be very misleading depending on HOW the sample was selected and HOW measured.

From Sociology: A Down-to-Earth Apprach by James Henslin (8th Edition) (2007) :
Problems in Measuring Divorce
"You probablyhave heard that the U.S. divorce rate is 50 percent, a figure that is popular with reporters. That statistic is true in the sense that each year about half as many divorces are granted as there are marriages perfored. The totals are 2.2 million marriages and about 1 million divorces (Munson and Sutton 2005)
What is wrong, then with saying that the divorce rate is about 50 percent? The real question is why we should compare the number of divorces and marriages that take place during the same year. The couples who divorced do not - with rare exceptions-come from the group that married that year. The one number has nothing to do with the other, so these statistics in no way establish the divorce rate.
What figures should we compare then? Couples who divorce are drawn from the entire group of married people in the country. Since the United States has 60,000,000 married couples, and only about 1 million of them obtain divorces in a year, the divorce rate for any given year is less than 2 percent. The couple's chances of still being married at the end of a year are over 98 percent - not bad odds- and certainly much better odds that the mas media would have us believe. ..."

A third way of measuring divorce, then, is to ask, Of all U.S. adults, what percentage are divorced? Or, rather than limiting to who is divorced now, how about asking who has EVER been divorced?

The book goes on to show all sorts of charts breaking down divorce rate by ethnicity and listing statistics for factors that increase or reduce the chance of divorce...some interesting stuff.

But Tess's posting was not about divorce. For that matter is was not about marriage. It was about longing for kindness, support and civility from our ward families. At least that is my take on what she wrote.

I don't think temple marriage and non-temple marriage is comparing apples to oranges. They are not simply different. One IS inherently BETTER in the eyes of God. That is IF both spouses honor it the way they should, which many times is not the case. But if we are not considering individual behavior, rather just looking at the type of contract the marriage is, hands down temple marriage wins.

We ALL know people who are miserable in temple marriages and people whose temple marriages failed. Hopefully we all know some temple marriages that are sweet, filled with reverence, laughter, and passion. We all know people who married outside the church who are delieriously happy. We all know some whose hearts are breaking. Marriage, ANY marriage, is complicated stuff.

I still come back to the core question of how can we be supportive of and kind to members who choose paths outside of the teachings of the church without discounting those teachings as true?

I have a sibling who cohabitated for years. Should I tell them when they come to visit my house over the holidays that they cannot sleep together? I don't allow people to smoke or drink in my house. But I do sit with them while they smoke or drink on my porch. I won't watch unedited rated R movies. But I don't care if my sibs do watch them in my house when I am doing something else. Where do we draw the lines between saying " This is MY standard I've chosen to follow but it's totally ok with me if you do something else." and saying "This is GOD'S standard that He wants from everyone. I still love you even though you don't accept that. But I wish you would."

How excited should I get about a person who is thrilled to be pregnant outside of marriage? Do I go to the baby shower?

What about when friends are all happy their significant other has asked them to cohabitate? Do I congratulate?

We want to have good relations with others. We SHOULD be kind at all times. But I don't thnk kindness should come at the expense of discounting the importance of God's desires and laws. It's a balance I certainly have not figured out
9/26/2007 8:19 AM

#12: Stady Canton

Tess, I'm sorry--I wasn't clear about what sisters have to come to terms with.... I meant that they would have to find ways to deal with those people who deem them incomplete. I know Sheri Dew talked/wrote about some of the horribly insensitive things people would say to her. I think it's about learning to turn a deaf ear to constant criticism & judgment, with hope for future understanding.
9/27/2007 7:06 PM

#13: Tess

Belladonna-- Thank you very much for pointing out that this post was not about divorce. It was not. And thank you for that note on divorce rate stats. Since I'm an English prof, this is by no means an area of expertise or understanding. Your comments and sources were very helpful.

Stady-- No need to apologize. I think I misread your intended meaning. I completely agree with your remarks.
9/30/2007 12:39 PM

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