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Wednesday Thought Experiment: The Death Penalty and the Atonement

By: The Baron

Imagine we have a guy named "Ken".  One day, out of the blue, Ken murders "Fred" who lives down the street from him.

Let's suppose YOU are called upon to decide Ken's fate, with absolute authority to hand down any sentence deemed appropriate, including the death penalty.  Let's say also that before you were called upon to do this, you had never met Ken nor Fred before (just to remove any non-rational influence one way or the other towards either man).

Now let's say that, through some advanced psychoanalysis and/or prophetic ability, you *knew* with a 100% certainty that the circumstances that led to Ken murdering Fred were a one-time aberration and, regardless of your ultimate decision as to Ken's fate, Ken would never murder anyone else ever again.

Now, the question to you is:  *NOT* 'Would you advocate giving Ken the death penalty?', but rather 'Would you advocate Ken receiving no sentence at all, but rather going free?'

Some things to consider:
  • Fred is dead, and nothing we do to Ken will bring Fred back.
  • Since we know that Ken's crime will never again be repeated, there is no real justification or need to 'protect' society from Ken's possible future criminal actions by putting him to death, or in jail.
  • Since there's nothing to gain by keeping Ken locked up, society would be better off with Ken free from confinement (and alive, obviously), as Ken's presence and future contributions to society and his family provide a larger 'plus' to mankind in general than having him in prison.
The extent that you would consider setting Ken free altogether (if at all) is a fair estimation of what you view the purpose of 'criminal sentencing' to be.  If the purpose of locking criminals up in jail for X number of days is simply to protect the innocent members of society from any such future crimes, then it seems obvious that it serves no purpose in this case, since we know that Ken will not pose a threat to anyone else again.

If, however, you view the purpose of sentencing (in whole or in part) as punishment for incorrect actions, then Ken should still receive a 'fair' sentence regardless of the large or small propensity to commit similar crimes in the future.  Not because society benefits in any way from Ken either being executed or locked up, but because that's the natural consequence of murder and Ken must accept the consequences.   You commit the crime, you accept the punishment for doing so.

The dual viewpoints of 'protection' and 'punishment' may or may not clarify why you support or oppose capital punishment in modern times, and to what extent.   One can easily argue that, according to the 'punishment' philosophy, taking someone's life can fairly require the forfeiture of one's own as a natural consequence, and that state-sponsored execution is not fundamentally immoral.   (One can also argue, of course, that killing is always immoral even as a response to other killing, and that jail serves all necessary aspects of 'justice' since--jail breaks and legal technicalities notwithstanding--society is adequately protected from future crimes.)

This post is not meant to argue for or against the death penalty (although I find the death penalty acceptable, for the above reasons), however, in our analysis there's something else to consider:

In the real world, outside of abstract thought experiments, there is another factor which may (and should) influence your decision:  namely, the 'incentive' factor for everyone else other than Ken.

Would setting Ken free without consequence essentially encourage others to commit similar crimes--since Ken seemed to 'get away with it'?

To what extent is 'punishment' not only for the perpetrator, but also for everyone else, to make clear to everyone that certain actions will receive certain punishments as a 'disincentive' to consider or commit those actions in the future?

What if you're more or less forced to punish Ken (even if you have a reasonable philosophical foundation for concluding that it would serve no purpose), simply because you can't afford to have society victimized by Ken copycats who see a 'loophole' of which to take advantage?

How does this apply to the eternal perspective?  Considering sin to be a 'crime' against God, we know through the scriptures that "no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God".  Since God loves us, and would prefer that we rejoin Him in His kingdom, we know that the consequences of sin (separation from God) are more in the vein of 'protection' than 'punishment'.  The standards of heaven must be 'protected', as even though God would prefer we were there, we cannot enter if we do not meet the standards.  The separation from God (defined as 'hell' by most religions) happens not because God wants to physically punish us for not doing what He wants, but because the eternal destiny of the kingdom of God and everyone in it can't be sidetracked by accepting the 'unclean'.

But wait...

Add in repentance and the Atonement to the equation and things change a little.  Through the Atonement, God is essentially saying, "I don't care that much about 'punishment'--I can forgive and forget when it comes to past transgressions as long as they are truly in the past.  I want you to be a contributing member of my kingdom, therefore through the Atonement we can skip the 'punishment' aspect of your sins, and at the same time protect the standards of the kingdom by helping you become perfect anyway."  Through the Atonement, we are essentially letting Ken go free (spiritually) without either a death or jail sentence.

That raises the question, though:  what about the 'incentive' angle for everyone else?

Any reasonable person knows that in the real world you can't just set Ken free without punishment, because that will open the floodgates for everyone else in society to do whatever they want and maintain that, like Ken, it was 'in the past', won't be repeated, and if Ken wasn't punished, I shouldn't be either.

And yet, this situation is essentially equivalent to forgiveness through the Atonement, where those that commit "large" sins but repent essentially end up in the same place as those who never committed those large sins in the first place.

Admittedly, in this situation it is tempered by the fact that everyone has *some* sin, large or small, so we're talking only relative measures now.  But there are many who feel something is "wrong" when they, for example, stay morally clean through high school to prepare for a mission, while their friends play around, then "repent", and are essentially judged to be equivalently clean when receiving a mission call at the same time.  Is that fair?  And, yet, under the infiniteness of the Atonement, you *can* be cleansed and forgiven of even large sins, and in a real way, there is no difference between the person who sinned and repented and the person who didn't sin at all.  (That's how it is designed...)

Questions:

Do we want people to be 'punished' for their sins, on some basic level?  Maybe suffer a little bit, before they are 'released from prison' and accepted as a equal member of (heavenly) society by ourselves?

Don't we, at heart, have a relative measure of sin where we know we are sinners, but only of *small* things, whereas the true sinners (the ones who commit *big* sins that horrify and offend us) should be treated differently.  Are we upset if we're treated the same in the long run?

Does this, taken to an extreme, create an incentive NOT to be righteous, since we figure if we're going to 'repent later' and be forgiven, why *not* go the 'big' sin route, instead of just 'small' sins?  If so, what's the answer to this quandary within the gospel--i.e. how do you properly reconcile the seriousness of sin, while recognizing the ability to be forgiven, regardless of the magnitude? What if the limitless power of the Atonement does, perversely, create an incentive to sin?

Print | posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:30 PM | Filed Under [ The Baron ]

Comments:

#1: Eric Nielson

Nice analysis.

I think the thing that may be missing here is how difficult it can be to get to the never doing it again part. The temptation and desire to continue in sin is real and powerful. To get to that point take tremendous will power, clear choice, and continuous effort. Those who have many sins, or serious sins, will often have a much more difficult time getting to that never doing it again stage than those who have few and minor sins.

Therefore, I think those who have truly repented os their sins are to be admired for the difficult thing they have had to go through to overcome those sins. I believe repentance can be one of the most difficult things to do. And to think it is easy, and one can just snap their fingers and gain forgiveness, is a mistake.

In your example here, Ken just isn't going to do it any more. Why not? what lead to the murder in the first place? Anger? Greed? Revenge? What is it that makes anyone so sure Ken has really rid himself of these things? What changed about Ken from the before murder to after murder state? I suspect that whatever that change was, it was not an easy change for him.
1/10/2008 5:10 AM

#2: JKC

On the incentive point, I think you're making a couple of assumptions:
1) People who kill are rational actors susceptible of deterrence.
2) People who need to be deterred will actually know about Ken's getting to go free.
Not that those assumptions are unwarranted, but we ought to at least acknowledge them because there are at least some cases where they are not the case.

On the point about it somehow being "wrong" that big sins get forgiven the same as little sins, this seems to be an issue of comparison where comparison really isn't warranted. My sins might seem small compared to the guy next to me, but given our different life experiences and the "intents of our hearts," our assumptions about the relative seriousness of sins may be wrong.

I think part of the point of the gospel is to get us to stop comparing our sins. Motes and beams and all that, for one example, the prodigal son, for another. The most vivid, I think, is the Lord's rebuke of the laborers in the vineyard who worked all day and then complained that the guys who worked only an hour got the same pay. His response is that what he pays is between him and those workers and that the other workers have nothing to say about it. Likewise, sin is an offense against God, and he alone is the judge of its seriousness.

In the end, it seems that our judgment is going to be much less about retribution or deterrence (or punishment/protection, as you call it here), and much more about quality. Rather than ask what you have done, I think the Lord's real inquiry will be what have you become. If that is the real question, then the issue of retribution isn't as important.
1/10/2008 6:11 AM

#3: The Baron

In your example here, Ken just isn't going to do it any more. Why not? what lead to the murder in the first place? Anger? Greed? Revenge? What is it that makes anyone so sure Ken has really rid himself of these things? What changed about Ken from the before murder to after murder state? I suspect that whatever that change was, it was not an easy change for him.


For thought experiment purposes, the situation is kept simple: Ken murdered Fred (the reason doesn't matter, although not in self-defense), and we know with 100% surety it will not happen again. Now what do you do? (The possibility Ken could easily murder again--present in real life, of course--would muddle the philosophical purpose of the thought experiment...)

The 'sin comparison' aspect is critical--if *everyone* is a sinner, and we can't draw a meaningful line between 'small' sins and 'big' sins, then we have no real basis for hoping other sins get 'punished' while ours do not. That doesn't stop that from being a common response, though. No one wants to be told that we need to forgive child molesters, for example, or that it is *possible* that they could repent and become 'equal' to those of us who didn't molest children, but that's how the gospel is. Are we prepared to let Ken go free without either wishing in our hearts that he was punished more along the lines of what we think he 'deserved', or taking his official forgiveness as an indication that we have no incentive to be righteous ourselves and abandoning all pretense of obedience?
1/10/2008 11:40 AM

#4: Eric Nielson

I am not accustomed to this little world you have constructed.

So, I would assume that if we were 100% sure that it would not happen again, that this could only come from successfully going through the repentance process. And if this were the case in this perfect gift of discerment world you have, then he should simply go free with no strings attached. And it would not matter what sin he had committed. I would have no problem with this.
1/10/2008 12:36 PM

#5: The Baron

Well, no...the discussion of Ken's fate has to do with what you consider the principle behind criminal sentencing to be--to 'punish' Ken, or to protect society from Ken's possible future behavior. It really has nothing (necessarily) to do with whether Ken has 'repented' or not. All we know is that it won't happen again--it could be because he's sorry, or it could be because the circumstances that he was in that drove him to kill in the first place were wholly unique and will never occur again. (I don't know if I can think of an example of the latter in real-life, but that's how the thought experiment is constructed).

Much of the current (non-religious) debate about the death penalty can be analyzed using this thought process: what's the purpose of criminal justice?

The latter half of the article is just applying the same principles to repentance and gospel issues, doesn't necessarily mean Ken's repentance, if any, is relevant...



1/10/2008 1:02 PM

#6: madera verde

I think you are forgetting another factor. The tribe/family fued factor. Namely relatives of the deceased most *likely* want to see something happen to the man who screwed them. If he gots off scot free it would be an easy matter for one of them to introduce him to some quick 'vigilante' justice and deliver him into the hands of that Great Judge. He could then argue, reasonably, since he has know recieved his revenge that he won't do it again. Therefore you should let him off for the same reasons as you had his victim.

Ultimately I think that earthly justice has mainly to do with maintaing state monopoly on violence or in other words 'law and order'. Thank God too. I remember in my anthro class a tribal soceity we were studying had a 25% homicide rate of young adult men. As for pure justice look to God none else.
1/10/2008 1:02 PM

#7: Eric Nielson

So I guess you are going for death penalty discussion instead of atonement discussion. (I was going the other way - sorry).

Some of the direct question you ask:

Would you advocate Ken receiving no sentence at all, but rather going free?'

You say we know he won't murder again. Will he commit any violent crime again? Has he completely reformed? No more anger issues or anything?

Would setting Ken free without consequence essentially encourage others to commit similar crimes--since Ken seemed to 'get away with it'?

Yes.

Is that fair?

Yes. It will all be fair. The repentance process will be more difficult for some sins and therefore for some people than others.

Do we want people to be 'punished' for their sins, on some basic level? Maybe suffer a little bit, before they are 'released from prison' and accepted as a equal member of (heavenly) society by ourselves?

I believe there is some basic level where we do suffer for our sins. Remorse and guilt are suffering. Wickedness never was happiness. Sin often makes life more difficult in the long run. Forgiveness is a conditional gift I believe.

Are we upset if we're treated the same in the long run?

No. I believe we are all treated the fairly in the long run.

And then in your long list of questions at the end, there seems to be an assumption that the repentance process is exactly the same regardless of the sin. Again, I think repentance can be very difficult, and truly reforming ourselves can require years of discipline and effort.

So sorry if I am misreading your purpose in the post. It seems most of you questions are atonement questions.

For me what is missing is just how reformed is this Ken person, and how did that reformation take place. You are the one who linked this to the atonement, and most of your questions center on that. To me repentance is a major key to activating the atonement and I have a hard time separating the two. The remorse, guilt, necessary reform, etc. of repentance is a type of suffering and 'punishment' for sin.




1/10/2008 3:34 PM

#8: The Baron

I was trying to do both the death penalty AND the Atonement (as in the title). Most of the questions are 'Atonement' questions at the end, sure, but tie into how we view 'punishment' in both a legal and an eternal sense.

'madera verde' is correct that many people, most obviously Fred's family, will NOT be satisfied if Ken is set free, even if they were also convinced that it was an isolated incident and Ken would not be a threat to anyone again. (Whether Ken has repented and feels remorse may affect their feelings, but may still be irrelevant).

By the same token, if Ken repented and Fred's family were asked to accept him as a fellow member of the Kingdom of God--as, essentially, equal to them in all things in the end, this would also (I believe) not be an easy task. Would they want Ken to 'suffer' a little more before they were satisfied that Ken had adequately borne the consequences of his sin and could accept him as 'redeemed'? (We can talk about how difficult repentance is, but oftentimes it doesn't *seem* difficult enough to outside observers, especially somewhat biased observers in this case)

I see the secular and spiritual applications of this question to be related, which is why I conflated them together. (Your mileage may vary...)
1/10/2008 3:55 PM

#9: Stady Canton

One thing the Atonement cannot restore in this life is the time lost in the sinning/repentance process.
1/10/2008 5:41 PM

#10: Eric Nielson

OK. I'm a little dense.

So the purpose of this was to eliminate the safety to society aspect of the death penalty in order to isolate punishment, and therefore think about the role of punishment in legal and eternal things. Is that about right?

D&C 134:8 gives the reson for public peace and tranquility for punishment for breaking good laws.

Alma 42:16-18 questions how can there be any law without punishment. And says this punishment was to bring remorse of conscience to man.
Verse 22 says that if there were no punishment and repentance and law that God would cease to be God.


2Ne2 states that there must be a punishment in opposition to happiness in the opposition in all things argument. Lehi goes as far to say that if there was no happiness and righteousness or punishment and misery that there would be no God.
1/11/2008 6:42 AM

#11: ADB

I liked "madra verde" comments. I think that with law there are servral considerations that need to me considered. There are many victims and demands of justice other then Fred in this case there is his family, friends and society. Just because Fred is dead does not mean that there is a justice that needs to be served for the family and society. The state is the controller of the legal violence that is used to mediate those demands of justice for the other parties. So there are many considerations that need to me made to fullfill justice. Would a release from any punishment mediate justice to his family or friends? Perhaps perhaps not. Although the state cannot completely satifsfy each individual justice it does its best through the courts.
I feel that with sin is the same way. Perhaps when we talk about justice for our sins that we are not really talking about God's justice, but rather ours. With sin, there are more victims then we give awknowlegement too. There are those who are offended, hurt, devistated by ones sinful actions, and for justice to be satisfied these also have to be resolved. I think that this is what we call God's justice although it really involves our since of justice towards others. I think that the demands for sin that lay on the sinner are not God's demands but rather ours. So the atonment is to fullfill the ends of justice thus it is to fullfill our demands of sin that we place on one another and ourselves. Thus Christ died for our demand for justice, suffering, and punishment that we lay on each other. It is our since of justice that crucified God. This is the very thing that God has to mediate us through. I think that we shift this truth onto God by projecting our since of justice upon Him. When we do this, it makes us easer for us to justify our demands for justice and make our actions and violence towards anothers offenses holy.
1/11/2008 10:46 AM

#12: Tanya

I think you lost me in the with the following
Now, the question to you is: *NOT* 'Would you advocate giving Ken the death penalty?', but rather 'Would you advocate Ken receiving no sentence at all, but rather going free?'
# Since we know that Ken's crime will never again be repeated, there is no real justification or need to 'protect' society from Ken's possible future criminal actions by putting him to death, or in jail.
# Since there's nothing to gain by keeping Ken locked up, society would be better off with Ken free from confinement (and alive, obviously), as Ken's presence and future contributions to society and his family provide a larger 'plus' to mankind in general than having him in prison.


Is not the idea punishment for the crime committed, not for what might be done?
Sorry I could not finish reading with that assumption.
Then also we still have to do our part for repentance. Just because Christ suffered for us does not mean we don't have to do our part in the repentance process. We need to suffer in our hearts to the point that we can turn to Christ. IT is not a point of Oh, I will never ever do this again, forgive me and go on. My understanding is there is lots more to the concept of repentance than that.
1/15/2008 3:29 PM

#13: Eric Nielson

Hehehe.

So what of the 'doctrine' of blood atonement?

Joseph Fielding Smith in 'Answers to Gospel Questions' quoted Charles W. Penrose - speaking of capital punishment:

'This divine law of shedding the blood of the murderer has never been repealed. It is a law given by the Almighty and not abrogated in the Christian faith. It stands on record for all time - that a murderer shall have his blood shed. He that commits murder must be slain. "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed". I know there are some benevolent and philanthropic people in these times who think that capital punishment ought to be abolished. Yet I think the Lord knows better than they. The law he ordained will have the best results to mankind in general.'



1/24/2008 6:42 AM

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