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Science vs. Religion, Part 1: Series Introduction and Overview

By: The Baron

[Part I in a series of articles exploring the ‘conflict’ between science and religion, particularly from a LDS perspective.  I do not have a pure scientific background, so this series will not be a deep analysis of scientific evidence in regards to religious beliefs or doctrines—you might try LDS Science Review or Clark’s site for that—but rather an exploration of the concepts of science and religion and how to relate and reconcile them together from a more abstract, philosophical perspective.]
 
A key question in modern society is how to judge the relationship between science and religion.  No one questions that they are different, but are they different in the sense that they fundamentally oppose and conflict with one another, like oil and water?  Or perhaps complement each other instead, like peanut butter and chocolate?

Or, wait…perhaps we’re starting with a flawed assumption from the very beginning.  ARE science and religion different?  Perhaps this is where a discussion of science and religion should start.

First, defining our terms:  “Science” is the body of knowledge about the physical world gained through human observation and experimentation, and includes the actual studies of the physical world where that knowledge is obtained.
 
Basically, “science” deals with discovering and recording facts, and we should note that ‘facts’ in this case refers to ALL facts—all things that are true in the universe--including not only those facts already discovered and recorded by humans past and present, but also all facts about ourselves and the universe yet to be discovered.

What’s ‘religion’, then?  Most people phrase ‘religion’ in terms of beliefs, and while this is a component, this does not mean ‘religion’ is divorced from ‘facts’ entirely.

“Religion” under its true definition is, in fact, the same as science—it is fundamentally about gaining knowledge of facts (or ‘truths’ as they are more commonly called) about God, the universe, and our place in it.  One of the first steps in understanding religion as it relates to science is to make sure we are applying the same definition of ‘fact’ or ‘truth’ to both sides.  (This is easier to do for science, but harder for many people to do for religion…)

Does God exist?  Did dinosaurs exist?  Does mankind possess a ‘spirit’ that continue to exist in some form after death?  Does mankind possess genetic markers that can indicate predisposition to certain diseases?  All four of these questions are similar—they can (and should) be treated in terms of ‘fact’ or ‘truth’, not ‘opinion’. 

God exists…or maybe He doesn’t.   Or maybe there’s a lot of Gods up there in Greek Pantheon fashion.  Regardless, the question “Is there a God?” has an objectively correct answer, just like asking “Were there dinosaurs on the Earth?”, or “Was there a Civil War in America?”  (Sometimes you hear, “God exists…if you believe He does.”  No one says, “The Civil War happened…if you believe it did!”)

When discussing ‘factual’ questions, it’s irrelevant if the answer is currently unknown, or even if there’s no particular scientific evidence for or against any of the possible answers, nor any reasonable hope to obtain such evidence.  A factual question has a factual answer, and religion—like science--can (and arguably should) still be viewed in terms of “answers”, not just “beliefs”.

If both science and religion are based around learning objective truths about the universe and our place in it, then from this perspective the difference between the two may not be as wide as originally thought.  We have two paradigms with the same goal—the search for truth—even if they largely approach that goal from different directions.

Understanding science and religion together involves understanding that the question, “How do we obtain our full eternal destiny in the afterlife” is closer to “How do stars form?” in purpose (i.e. a factual question) than “How do we redecorate our living room?” (a question based entirely on opinion and preference).

Is there a conflict between science and religion?  At the risk of spoiling the rest of the series, no: in my opinion, there is no fundamental conflict between science and religion such that one has to accept one and only one in lieu of the other.  Over the next few weeks, we’ll go over some of the details, and discuss why a believer in religion can accept science whole-heartedly, and vice versa…

Next: The definition of "theory"

Print | posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 7:11 AM | Filed Under [ The Baron General Theology Science ]

Comments:

#1: Doc

Poacher. (just kidding). I don't think Science is not necessarily the search for all truth, but of the objectively falsifiable truth. Theoretically (no pun intended), it should be agnostic regarding unporven ideas, but it tends to reject as anathema those things that are untestable or unempirically derived from where we sit now. It is interesting to me how one goes about finding truth through skepticism, the other by faith, and yet, IMHO, both work well and have led to some marvelous discoveries and understandings.
3/10/2008 7:46 AM

#2: Lincoln Cannon

Good science requires as much faith as good religion. Without faith, there is no hypothesis. Likewise, good religion requires as much skepticism as good science. Without skepticism, we are possessed.
3/10/2008 9:20 AM

#3: Clark Goble

Doc, that was Popper's view. I don't think it works. The typical response to a Popperian view of the philosophy of science is to note that for many ideas if they appear wrong we don't say they are falsified but rather say there is something else going on. That's because in any experiment there are so many complications and we usually have a dominant set of theories that explain the phenomena. While I'm a bit dubious of the counter-view of scientific paradigms I think Kuhn has a pretty good example with the change from a geocentric astronomy to one where the planets orbit the sun.

The folks using the old Aristotilean view just kept adding corrections to their calculations which meant that they could account for the positions of the planets as well as those arguing for the Copernican view. (And remember that one can only solve the two body problem exactly - so even in a solar centric astronomy one has to add fudge factors and the like to make it work)

In general if you have an expectation and do experiments and it doesn't work one hasn't falsified things because there are always other explanations. In the modern examples you can see this with those arguing for dark matter and dark energy versus those arguing for adjustments to General Relativity.
3/10/2008 10:34 AM

#4: Doc

You are probably correct, Clark, nothing is totally falsifiable. I guess science works by finding the best explanations it can to support and idea and then seeing where it falls short so it can revise. Eventually old paradigms hit the wall and a radical new one is needed to make any progress. I think any new theory does need some supporting data, but true innovation can only come in an open society similar to what Popper described. Didn't much of Popper's view came from what Einstein had recently done to Newtonian physics? Newtonian physics hasn't been scrapped by any means, but it is certainly no longer seen as absolute. Correct me if I am wrong. I am certain you are much better read on the subject of philosophy of science than I am.
3/10/2008 11:56 AM

#5: Allen

I look on this topic in the following way. We basically have two paradigms in use (with variations in each paradigm, of course). The scientific paradigm is based on scientific research and is a model of real life. The religious paradigm (Christian) is based on information from the Bible, particularly Genesis. It is not a model of the real world but is a model of the world as seen by the ancient Hebrews: the earth was created by God in 6 "days", where the length of a "day" is not given. This model doesn't say how God created the earth, only that he created it in a particular order that is given in Genesis. According to this paradigm, Adam and Even were the first humans and lived approximately 4000 BC. This is the model that the Church uses in its manuals, sermons, classes, etc. Again, to emphasize, this paradigm is not a model of the real world as we see the world today through scientific eyes, and the paradigm was never meant to be a model of the 21st century view of the real world.

Because of the two paradigms, I have two "hats" to wear. If I'm reading scientific literature, I wear my "scientific" hat and read the reports within the context of the scientific paradigm. If I read the scriptures, listen to Sacrament Meeting talks, attend Gospel Doctrine class, etc. I do so from the context of the religious paradigm and wear my "religious" hat. I'm not concerned that the two paradigms disagree with each other, since I look to the scientific paradigm to understand the real world, and I look to the religious paradigm to understand the scriptures and the teachings of the Church.

I do believe, though, that the two paradigms will eventually merge into one grand paradigm, but that is a long ways off. In my blog, I'm tracking parallels between the two paradigms so I can observe small changes that might bring the two paradigms closer to together. The recent one-word change to the Introduction to the Book of Mormon was exciting to me, because it was a small step in bringing the two paradigms together.
3/10/2008 12:10 PM

#6: kristine N

Clark, if you get a chance you should check out this article in an old physics today. It made several points about the Copernican revolution that I hadn't realized before--notably that Copernicus's original theory, employing circular orbits as it did, wasn't any better at predicting the motions of the bodies in the heavens than Ptolemy's theory. It wasn't until Kepler and Newton came along with elliptical orbits and gravity, respectively, that there was conclusive evidence, in the form of accurate prediction, for the superiority of the helocentric model over the geocentric model. I also didn't realize that nobody in the religious sphere cared about Copernicus or heliocentricity until long after Copernicus died.
3/10/2008 12:48 PM

#7: Jeff G

Arrgh. It deleted my post.

I think you do science an injustice by characterizing it as mere fact gathering. Science is primarily interesting in find theories which systematize and explain the facts we observe around us. I don't really think anything in your post really hangs on this point though.

Where I think the post goes astray is here:

"If both science and religion are based around learning objective truths about the universe and our place in it, then from this perspective the difference between the two may not be as wide as originally thought."

I think that it is precisely because the two address the same questions that they are in conflict with one another. If they addressed different questions, only then would they be complimentary or something like that. There are at least three main incompatibilities between science and religion: they approach the same questions in incompatible ways, they answer the same questions with incompatible answers and the nature of their answers are incompatible.

1. Science assumes that nature is a completely closed system and never allows for super-natural or extra-natural events to play any role. While this methodological naturalism need not collapse into metaphysical naturalism, one has to wonder why the naturalistic assumption works so well? It is difficult to see how one can embrace science "whole-heartedly" without accepting some kind of God-of-the-gaps.

2. While the God question, and indeed most religious questions do not lend themselves to empirical inquiry, making them seemingly invulnerable to confirmation or disconfirmation, religion does make factual claims which are not so protected from scientific scrutiny. The three main battlefields upon which the science/religion wars have been fought are the place of the earth in the universe, the place of man in the biological world and the place of the mental (soul) in the organism. The answers which science and religion give on these issues are not compatible and one must decide which source for answers should prevail over the other.

3. Science is never after once-and-for-all truth. Everyone thought that Newtonian mechanics was absolute truth. They were wrong, and we have no reason to believe that we might not be wrong about any theory which we will ever have. Religion, on the other hand, insists that while more truth may come later on, the truth which we already have cannot be wrong. Religion is accumulative while science is not. I'm not really sure, however, if this is an incompatibility or simply a difference. (Notice how the difference is what makes compatibility possible?)

While I'm sure you will address these questions in more detail throughout your series, I'm a little skeptical.
3/10/2008 12:53 PM

#8: Doc

Jeff,
As far as the truth we have never being wrong, that depends on point of view. That is a literalist vs. versus non-literalist argument. The fact is, as our understanding in religion grows, in Mormonism anyway, we do discard lesser understanding. Not that the earlier wasn't true for its context, but it was more designed for our past understanding and cultural paradigm. Don't confuse dogmatism with religion. I would argue that dogmatism is a hazard in both science and religion.
3/10/2008 1:04 PM

#9: Jeff G

"we do discard lesser understanding."

Do you discard it, or merely supplement it? In other words, is that which is discarded true or not? What does it mean for something to be "true for its context"?

I think one is going to have a difficult time disentangling dogmatism from religion. If religion is given to us from God, rather than merely being about God, then we have every right be dogmatic about it. This is what happens when we posit an infallible source for knowledge.

Of course one can say that our understanding of God and his word is fallible, but this is a pretty steep price to pay. It necessarily subordinates religion to some other arbiter of truth. To be more clear, by what standards are we to evaluate which understandings of God's word are better than others? Is it by scientific standards? Personal whim? What? To say that our understanding of God's word about the three points I mentioned above seems very dissatisfying.
3/10/2008 1:16 PM

#10: The Baron

Don't confuse dogmatism with religion. I would argue that dogmatism is a hazard in both science and religion.


This is a key point, which will be addressed later in the series. Much of the "conflict" between science and religion comes from straw man arguments from one side to the other, and--more commonly--dogmatic assertions from one side or the other insisting they know a lot more about the details than they actually do based on an objective look at either existing evidence, or scriptural text.
3/10/2008 1:17 PM

#11: Clark Goble

Doc, I'm not sure what the origin of Popper's ideas was. I know he was trying to be part of the Vienna Circle and that style of positivism and broke off. But I simply don't know what philosophical influences helped shape his views. Not that it matters I suppose.

While I think Kuhn goes way too far and is problematic I think he is correct that why one theory is chosen over an other by the community tends to be far more complex than it appears.

Allen, the idea that there are only two paradigms seems wrong somehow. At a minimum no modern Christian adopts a 1st century Jewish worldview. (And it isn't as if there was a single Hebrew worldview then)




3/10/2008 2:49 PM

#12: Jeff G

I just found this fascinating source for multimedia files regarding the science/religion relationship.
3/11/2008 1:47 AM

#13: Eric Nielson

It looks like my comment got eaten also.

Anyway, nice start. It looks like this might end up with skepticism for what is 'known' in both science and religion. I look forward to future parts.
3/12/2008 6:28 AM

#14: Eliza-Anne

To Jeff and other skeptics,
You take the common track of “science believers” these days—that is, claiming that science and religion are incompatible because their domains are not intersecting. They are “non-overlapping magisteria.” I think Stephen Jay Gould coined the term. This states that science explores and explains nature in strictly natural terms and does not explore or explain the super-natural or use super-natural explanations for natural phenomena. But natural and super-natural are false dichotomies. Suddenly we find, by definitional sleight of hand, that God has been defined out of the picture. Mormons should know better. (Actually I don’t know whether Jeff is a Mormon.)
But the Restoration is a fountain of new information about these old questions. Basic to the current discussion is the information in Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-- “There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;” The Mormon God is not a “super-natural God” who exists outside of nature. He is inside of nature; He is a part of the natural world. Spirit is natural, it is “finer” matter. For the present, we can’t see it. But once we coldn’t “see” inside cells, or see sub-atomic particles. If we understood all the laws we would understand that God always acts in accordance with law.
God does not use magic or “supernatural” means to get things done. But He does know laws that we haven’t discovered yet.
Well, you say. It is hardly fair to take spiritual things into consideration if there’s no spiritometer to test this stuff. So even if God is quite real and actual and exists in nature—we still can’t find Him in the laboratory because He is so far ahead of us.
True. But notice that God invites men to do the very thing that scientists do. He says, “Experiment upon the word.” He establishes laboratory like procedures to test the premises of His Word that will work the same for everyone at all times and in all places. Anyone who wants to test the hypothesis that the Mormon church contains revealed truth from a living God can contact their local Mormon missionaries. White shirts, black nametags, usually on bikes. They’ll give you a Book of Mormon, which in my experience, meets the test for falsifiability.
I wish I had time to explore the other major evidence that God has provided of His own existence—the physical world. A creation demands a creator. But I see your hackles rising already. Another post, another day.

5/6/2008 6:22 PM

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