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Of Priesthood Bans and Atomic Bombs

By: The Baron

On August 6th, 1945, the US dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan--quickly followed three days later by another on Nagasaki.   This bombing essentially ended World War II in the Pacific front, as Japan surrendered to the Allies immediately after.

The use of atomic bombs to end the war—causing over 200,000 deaths within the first year, and many more following due to radiation exposure—was and is, to say the least, a controversial decision.  Was dropping two atomic bombs on Japan a ‘mistake’ by the US?  Something that, in hindsight, was highly regrettable, and shouldn’t have happened?

By definition, using the term ‘mistake’ implies that a better course of action existed—one that (1) was available at the time, and (2) would have resulted in more acceptable consequences than what was actually chosen.  Unless those two criteria are met, though, the word ‘mistake’ cannot reasonably be applied—an objectively bad option may still legitimately be the least worst option and thus not, technically, a ‘mistake’. 

Judged in a vacuum: killing people is bad, killing 200,000+ people is really bad, not killing 200,000 people is good.  Zero deaths is better than 200,000 deaths, therefore dropping the bomb was a mistake and shouldn’t have happened.  Game.  Set.  Match.

This naïve approach implies Japan was a peaceful island nation minding its own business when bloodthirsty US invaders happened to fly by and annihilate two cities just for fun.  In reality, the US and Japan were at war, the Japanese leadership was resistant to surrender even after the first bomb, and the US was attempting to end the war by any means necessary.  Comparing 200,000 lives lost versus zero lives lost is a false and irrelevant comparison because no option that would have cost zero lives existed.   It isn’t as if the US got their maps wrong and accidentally dropped the bomb on Korea, instead. (“Oops.”)

If dropping the bomb on Japan was a ‘mistake’—a regrettable and inferior choice, in that a clearly better course of action existed--the question becomes: what would that ‘better’ course of action have been?  Withdrawing from the war, and leaving Japan to dominate all the other Asian countries within their reach?  Invading with land troops and conventional bombing and taking Japan by force?  Would the casualties in Japan (and everyone else) have been less, equal, or greater than the life cost using nuclear weapons?

No one knows for sure—that’s the enigma of alternative history.  No one knows what the results would have been if another choice was made, because another choice wasn’t made, and that path of history doesn’t exist to analyze and compare.

Supporters of dropping the bomb argue that the ‘alternate history’ involving a land invasion would have been much worse in terms of US (and Japanese) lives.  Detractors of dropping the bomb argue that the ‘alternate history’ could have been better (although certainly not in any naïve ‘zero lives lost and everyone dances around the campfire in harmony together’ sense).  No one can say for sure, though, because the paths not chosen are lost forever in the mists of time.

As we recognize the 30th anniversary of the 1978 revelation that allowed black men to be ordained to the priesthood in the LDS Church, the same sort of alternate history quandary applies.  Many enlightened 21st century members say the priesthood ban was a 'mistake' that shouldn’t have happened.  This leads to the same question as above: What would have happened in the Church, then, in our speculative alternate history without racial restrictions?  Would black and white Church members have been figuratively ‘dancing around the campfire together hand in hand’…several decades before the Civil War?

In the early-to-mid 19th century, if you were a white ‘liberal progressive’ in terms of race, it meant you opposed slavery.  Period.   It did not mean you thought blacks should have the right to vote.  It did not mean you believed blacks should own land, or have the same employment rights as whites.  It certainly did not mean you would have been perfectly okay with your daughter bringing home a black boyfriend.  From a 21st century perspective, even the most progressive liberals in terms of race in the 1800’s were still…well, racist.

Pre-Civil-War, would white members have been perfectly fine confessing their sins to a black bishop?  Or taking sacrament bread/wine broken by black hands, or touched by black lips? Or having black hands lain on their heads for blessings and ordinations?  If a great many white members were NOT okay with those things, what happens?

What would have happened, was the same thing that happened in every other church and organization in the US before the Civil Rights era (still more than one hundred years in the future) when whites in large part realized blacks had the right to be free and treated as human beings…but, gee, that doesn’t mean we have to associate with them ourselves, right?  Can’t they do their own thing…you know, over there, away from us?

As US history shows, the institution of slavery soon gave way to the institution of segregation.  Note that the reasoning behind segregation was not (always) based on ‘hate’.  Many of those same progressive liberals were perfectly willing to accept that blacks were human and deserved the same opportunity as themselves to work, raise a family, and seek after happiness…but, you know, not HERE in *our* companies, *our* neighborhoods, and *our* churches, of course.  They should be over there with 'their own kind’—a much more happier and suitable option for everyone!

Thus the key question:  what would have stopped the LDS Church from becoming segregated in the same way? Where white members would have been perfectly happy with black men being ordained to the priesthood...as long as they exercised that priesthood somewhere else.

(Ask a random white member in the early Church if a black man should be called as an LDS bishop and they might say, “Absolutely!  ...<pause>...  Oh, but not in OUR ward!  No, he should be called to serve among his ‘own kind’—that’s much better for everyone involved.”  Multiply this attitude by several thousand and we now have black LDS wards and white LDS wards--where blacks now have the priesthood and participate in priesthood ordinances, but in their own church away from everyone else.)

These are the questions to answer in relation to the black priesthood ban:

(1) What’s the likelihood that segregation would happened in the early Church?

(2) If segregation was, in fact, a likely if not outright inevitable possibility, would that have been better or worse for blacks than not having the priesthood?

If the realistic choices were ‘priesthood ban’ versus ‘segregation’ (not the false choices of ‘priesthood ban’ versus ‘racial harmony’), then that changes the entire conversation.  Attending meetings but not being allowed to participate in priesthood ordinances, or not being allowed to enter the chapel at all?  Which one would you choose?   (Note—ironically—that the priesthood ban made segregating blacks into their own wards literally impossible.)
 
By the same logic as the atomic bomb example above, the priesthood ban can’t be a ‘mistake’ if it was, in fact, better than any of the alternatives.   Without a convincing case that segregation would NOT have occurred in the LDS Church, don’t we have to accept the ‘least worst’ option? 

LDS members critical of the ban get themselves caught in a contradiction:  they cynically attribute the ban to “racism” of early Church members (and had nothing to do with God’s will), but then—paradoxically and highly optimistically--think life without the ban would have resulted in our vision of blacks and whites holding hands together, with no racial strife whatsoever.

One can’t have it both ways:  if the ban existed because the early church was racist, then isn’t that a pretty strong indicator that without the priesthood ban, life for black saints was not going to be smooth sailing regardless?  The reason the ban existed may have been the exact reason the ban was necessary in the first place, if only because the alternative was worse.

(As a thought experiment, read the Salt Lake Tribune report about some of the trials black Saints have gone through, particularly the experience of Tamu Smith in the temple, and ask yourself whether blacks meeting in segregated wards instead of being banned from the priesthood would have made this and similar experiences more or less common in Church history.  After all, under segregation, white church members would have been far more accustomed to the idea that ‘blacks don’t belong in the same places of worship as us…’  Which do you think would have required more adjustment when it finally ended in modern times?)  

Those who oppose dropping nuclear bombs on Japan can’t just ignore that there was a war going on when making their analysis.  There was no ‘don’t drop the bomb and everyone lives happily ever after’ option to choose.  Likewise, Church members who oppose the ban because they are opposed to racism can’t just pretend that racism didn’t already exist as a fundamental element of American culture when proposing what *should* have happened, instead.

Church members can't lament the existence of racism in one context, and then immediately pretend racism didn't exist in another context when deciding how the Lord would or would not have wanted to bring the Church from the 19th century into the 21st.  The priesthood ban was certainly regrettable...only because racism is regrettable.  Was it a 'mistake', though?  Present the better alternative first, and then we'll decide...

Print | posted on Monday, June 09, 2008 12:31 PM | Filed Under [ The Baron General Mormon Culture History Theology ]

Comments:

#1: J. Nelson-Seawright

Are you arguing that the church shouldn't be better than society at large? It seems that way, but that's an argument I can't accept.

It's worth noting that during most of the period of the priesthood ban, it was church policy not to actively proselytize black people. So segregation was reinforced, not mitigated, by this policy. Furthermore, there were integrated churches, in the world and in America, during this time period. So there are historical examples which show that we could have done better.
6/9/2008 4:40 PM

#2: Jack

Great post, Baron--and bravely spoken.

JNS,

Was Jeremiah wrong for counseling the Jews to bow to Babylon? They thought he was a fool--and were destroyed for so thinking. Sure it would have been better if, in an alternate history, they would have just lived the law of Zion. But God was trying to do all he could to preserve them--right down to the last possible ditch effort.

So yeah, the church should be better than society at large, but that doesn't mean that God doesn't work with us where we're at; that he won't condescend beyond what the academy feels is an appropriate ethical limit.
6/9/2008 5:23 PM

#3: J. Nelson-Seawright

Jack, yeah, I agree -- God did work with the church and move it past its sin of racial exclusion. An alternative history could have been one in which He rejected us. That didn't happen.
6/9/2008 8:04 PM

#4: Jack

Well, what about the original post? I think the question is: is it possible that the restriction--as sad as it was--was better than an even sadder inevitable alternative had the ban not been imposed? All the silly folklore aside?
6/10/2008 5:25 AM

#5: J. Nelson-Seawright

Jack, I don't think the original post makes its case. It's sunk by the false presumption that our church wasn't segregated during the period of the ban. The church was segregated -- as a whole -- by the worldwide rule not to proselytize black people. We didn't even have missions in whole parts of the world, such as most of Africa and the Caribbean, because there were too many black people there. In fact, when a large group of Africans found Mormon literature, wanted to convert, and wrote to the church asking for missionaries to baptize them, the church said no. So there wasn't a choice, as the post argued, between "priesthood ban" and "segregation." In actual fact, the priesthood ban entailed segregation. That means the original post's concept of how things could have been worse without the ban is moot; the worse thing the Baron envisions as a possible consequence of not having the ban was in fact a component of the ban itself.

On race issues, our pre-1978 legacy is about as murky as it could be. Brigham Young made sure that Utah Territory was organized as a slave territory during the pre-Civil War period. Various church leaders worked against the Civil Rights movement for decades, Hugh B. Brown's valiant countervailing example notwithstanding. J. Reuben Clark, for instance, made sure the blood supplies in church-owned hospitals were racially segregated to "keep the blood of this people pure." The church's Hotel Utah had a policy against providing lodgings to black people until such policies were made illegal by federal Civil Rights legislation. On point after point, in the post-Joseph Smith era, our church was on the trailing end of U.S. belief regarding race and Civil Rights.

Had there not been a priesthood ban, it's almost certain that more black people would have joined the church. There are circumstances when increased cross-racial contact can breed more prejudice, but usually only when the stigmatized racial group is approaching majority status in a community. I think we can probably agree that this would have been an unlikely scenario among Mormons during most of the 20th century, even if there had never been a ban. So the overwhelmingly most probable outcome if the ban hadn't existed would have been that some Mormons would have had positive contact with some black people. As a result, we as a community would probably have been less racist. Not completely un-racist, but less racist. Is that a terrible fate?
6/10/2008 6:39 AM

#6: The Baron

Are you arguing that the church shouldn't be better than society at large? It seems that way, but that's an argument I can't accept.


That's the irony...the Church *was* better than 'society at large' simply because they weren't segregated when everyone else was. How many "white" churches, pre-Civil War even had black members, let alone black missionaries?

If you believe that the ban may have been (in part) a protection against segregation, then this also answers the question of why it took "so long" to end--it would have defeated the purpose to rescind the ban *before* segregation was gone from 'society at large'...otherwise it becomes a step back.

People say the Church should have been ahead of the curve in terms of the Civil Rights era...not if the ban was in part a reactionary step against worse consequences. Then, it's appropriate to wait until everyone else changes first, and then change the policy.
6/10/2008 6:44 AM

#7: J. Nelson-Seawright

Hey, Baron, lots of other churches had black and white members. The Catholics had managed this for centuries.

The Mormon church, by contrast, was segregated throughout the pre-1978 period. We turned away most black would-be members and told missionaries not to teach them or seek them out. Only a few were persistent enough to get baptized in spite of this policy of segregation. The ban can't have been a protection against segregation, because it produced segregation. But I made that point in previous comments. I guess a fundamental contradiction to the premise of your argument isn't important enough to take notice of.
6/10/2008 6:50 AM

#8: The Baron

JNS, do *any* of your examples of 'murky racial relations' in Church history have anything to do with priesthood? (i.e. if blacks held the priesthood at the time, whether or not the theorized segregation came to pass, would any of those incidents have NOT still happened?) People have cared about 'keeping blood pure' for centuries--the Church didn't *create* that attitude, and allowing blacks to pass the sacrament isn't going to automatically make that go away...

Not proselytizing in black countries where there can be no local organization is not, by definition, 'segregation'. Did the Church refuse to baptize blacks in the US before 1978? No, there were already a core group of black Saints who converted and were baptized long before 1978. Administratively, why create a congregation where you would have to 'import' leaders from other countries? I don't understand how allowing African Saints to be baptized and hold the priesthood earlier, but still be in predominantly black congregations, creates any different de facto segregation than you say NOT having the priesthood created...

One can always speculate whether things would have been worse or better for the Church (and black Saints) if the ban didn't exist--that's the point of the post (and it is just speculation on my part, of course...). But the point is, it is not obvious that NOT having the ban would have led directly to racial harmony in the Church, which critics of the ban seem to suggest...
6/10/2008 7:07 AM

#9: J. Nelson-Seawright

Baron, you are missing the point. Is it worse to have segregated congregations within an integrated church, or to have a segregated church? You're right that there were a handful of black Saints who toughed out the racism and exclusion pre-1978. But only a handful. We were an overwhelmingly white church, one of the whitest in America. The church as a whole was segregated, due to an effective apartheid policy at the institutional level. You're just trying to, as the cliche goes, put lipstick on a pig; blacks were excluded, no matter how you try to reword the story.

This, and similar conversations this week, has been deeply depressing to me. It's sad that there are still so many apologists for racial exclusion among us. I wish we'd all pay more attention to President Hinckley's words on race; this post in its attempt to explain the past exclusion violates his advice to avoid these kinds of hurtful and divisive speculation about race.
6/10/2008 7:41 AM

#10: Christopher

I don't have much to add to JNS's comments (which I agree with completely), other than to suggest a few points and further clarify others:

In the pre-Civil War United States, many churches were integrated, including the Methodists, Baptists, and Quakers. All of the above-named groups had ordained black preachers and missionaries.

Also, it is a bit misleading to suggest that the LDS Church wasn't segregated. It, in fact, was very segregated. In addition to JNS's apt observation that "we turned away most black would-be members and told missionaries not to teach them or seek them out," if we focus our attention outside the Wasatch Front (especially to the American South), you would find a Mormonism very much segregated. There is record of black members being told to stay home instead of attending church on Sunday by local leaders.

The easiest way to look at the issue in my mind is to contemplate whether it would have been better for an African-American to have been a Mormon or to have been a Methodist, Catholic, or Baptists pre-1978? The answer seems obvious to me--the latter and not the former.
6/10/2008 1:18 PM

#11: Jack

JNS,

Stop it with bleeding heart silliness. No one here is suggesting that racial exclusion was ever a good thing per se. We (those of us around here who are old enough to remember) choke up every time we think about the 1978 revelation--especially those of us who have lived, worked, and played among our black brothers and sisters. I see this every time some one is "brazen" enough to suggest that there may have been more going on with the ban than meets the eye--something wholly unrelated and indeed counterintuitive to the ugly folklore associated with it. They're labeled as "hurtful" and "divisive" e.g. unchristian.

Sheesh.
6/10/2008 5:38 PM

#12: Jack

Now that I've come back a few hours later I see that my comment is too harsh. Sorry, JNS. I guess I'm not ready to believe that it was *all* a product of racism. There are too many hurdles to overcome if we go in that direction--as I see it. That being said, racism was surely at the heart of it--and it is noteworthy to point out that particualr subtext in the Baron's post. He says:

"Pre-Civil-War, would white members have been perfectly fine confessing their sins to a black bishop? Or taking sacrament bread/wine broken by black hands, or touched by black lips? Or having black hands lain on their heads for blessings and ordinations? If a great many white members were NOT okay with those things, what happens?"

There's no question that there was some bad thinking to be overcome by the white membership of the church--no question. But, in light of that, I still think the Baron's general question is a good one. What if there were no ban ever imposed? What would have been the alternative history? Do you really believe the whites (generally) were ready to stand shoulder to shoulder with their black brothers? No way.

I think the ostricization might have been far worse without the ban--where there would have been no cause for racial exclusion (and I'm talking about what happens during your average Sunday meeting schedule--not a directive to avoid preaching among the blacks) except a blatant odious racism.

Now some may feel that that "blatant racism" is the direct cause of the ban--and maybe one day they'll be proven right. But until then, the burden of proof rests with them.

So, for me it boils down to: Was there racism in the church? Yes. Are the "doctrines" that were preached by some to support the ban supportable by scripture and the words of current prophets? It appears not. Was the restriction inspired? We don't know.

And finally: Is it OK to suppose that the restriction may not have been inspired? Yes.
6/10/2008 11:34 PM

#13: Eric Nielson

JNS:

Are you contending that there are only two possibilities here - that either one admits that the church and its leaders were racists, or they are racist thenselves?

Is this a fair statement? Are there no other possibilities?
6/11/2008 4:53 AM

#14: J. Nelson-Seawright

Eric, I didn't say that. Many church leaders of the past certainly seem to have been racists based on their amazing statements about black people, and the priesthood ban was racist by definition since it created social exclusions based on race. However, people can deny these facts without being racists; they might be misinformed, uninformed, or overly defensive, for example. Yet even so, trying to justify the exclusion is the act of defending racism -- even if that act is carried out for non-racist motives.

Jack, I just don't think the case has been made that things could have been worse without the ban. Mormonism was one of the most racially exclusive religions in America during the period of the ban. Do you think black people turned away by the missionaries felt better because it was a policy than they would have felt if it were simply personal bias? It just doesn't make sense.
6/11/2008 7:52 AM

#15: Eric Nielson

J:

Thanks for the reply. I know you didn't say that, which is why I asked for clarification.

In a general way, is exclusion new in God's dealing with people? I mean the whole Old Testament is an example of God's dealings with the House of Isreal at the exclusion of all Gentiles - isn't it? Is this racist? If I remember right, Christ himself said once that he was only sent to the House of Isreal. Was this racist?
6/11/2008 9:37 AM

#16: J. Nelson-Seawright

Eric, the Old Testament allows for conversion of Gentiles. So there wasn't a categorical exclusion. There were exclusions regarding priesthood, but Old Testament priesthood denial didn't entail exclusion from ordinances like the temple, let alone proscriptions against proselytizing. Indeed, various Old Testament figures are shown as trying to convert prominent non-Israelites. There may be exclusion here, but it's weaker in comparison with pre-1978 Mormonism.

And was Jesus sent just to the House of Israel? Maybe. But his gospel was sent to all the world. Gentiles certainly weren't excluded. Furthermore, it's unclear whether Jesus really didn't minister to Gentiles; some stories show him doing so.

Now let's ask the harder question. The Old Testament was edited by a lot of Israelite nationalists, wasn't it? So even if the Old Testament did say that God reached out only to Gentiles (which is not the case), we would still have some reason to worry about whether that statement reflected God's will or the perspective of scribes and editors.

Which is to say, I'm not sure we have any basis for thinking that God works through exclusion. The clearest examples we have, Peter's revelation and the 1978 revelation, show God working in the opposite direction.

We have a lot of baggage of racial and lineage theories in Mormonism. These theories are inextricably intertwined with the racial priesthood and temple ban, and with the racist folklore that the church has repeatedly condemned. It may take us generations to sort this stuff out, but for the time being I think it's clear that there's no safety in relying on traditional accounts of racial or lineage exclusion. Such things are at least as likely to be part of the tainted legacy we're supposed to discard as they are to be God's truth.
6/11/2008 11:08 AM

#17: JimD

JNS -

We have a lot of baggage of racial and lineage theories in Mormonism. These theories are inextricably intertwined with the racial priesthood and temple ban, and with the racist folklore that the church has repeatedly condemned. It may take us generations to sort this stuff out, but for the time being I think it's clear that there's no safety in relying on traditional accounts of racial or lineage exclusion. Such things are at least as likely to be part of the tainted legacy we're supposed to discard as they are to be God's truth.

So, my patriarch acted improperly when he pronounced me of the lineage of Ephraim?

I think that's what really worries me about some of the more strident condemnations of the pre-existence/lineage theories--they throw out the baby with the bathwater, to the point that it's apparently not even PC to discuss what it really means to be a member of the House of Israel.
6/11/2008 11:47 AM

#18: J. Nelson-Seawright

Jim, don't we have the doctrine of adoption into the House of Israel? Your lineage assignment isn't a statement of race or ethnicity. It's a pronouncement of blessing. Membership in the House of Israel isn't a lineage question for Mormons, it's a matter of baptism.
6/11/2008 11:52 AM

#19: JimD

Hmmm. Good point.
6/11/2008 11:53 AM

#20: Eric Nielson

Excellent replies J.
6/11/2008 12:35 PM

#21: Jack

Christopher and JNS,

Are you really suggesting that blacks and whites were regularly sitting next to each other in church (of whatever Christian persuasion) circa the Civil War? I think you might find a few wild exceptions to the norm of those days, but to believe that the Mormons were an extreme example of exclusion is going way overboard, IMO. The few black members the church has had have never been forced to the back row or the balcony--or to a completely different location with it's own clergy. In fact, the idea that BY himself taught that the blacks would one day have the blessings of the priesthood demonstrates that there was a basic theological notion of racial inclusion rattling around in the heads of the early saints--even though they were products of the concurrent racist culture and therefore quite comfortable viewing the the "long promised day" as millennial.

The restriction--as wrong as it may have been--was never viewed as permanent. And as such, those who were willing to delve a little into the theological implications of said view undoubtedly ran up against the idea that blacks would one day have a shot at Eternal Life too.

6/11/2008 9:00 PM

#22: Christopher

Jack,

If you visited a Methodist camp meeting in antebellum America, you would very likely see whites worshipping next to blacks, and possibly even observe whites being preached to/exhorted by blacks. The Quakers were even more racially egalitarian, as were the Shakers. Black Methodists weren't forced "to a completely different location with it's own clergy," though in the 1810s, 3 or 4 separate groups of African-American Methodists chose to form their own Methodist churches, separate from the Methodist Episcopal Church, but that is not because they were forced to.

I did not say that Mormons "were an extreme example," but they weren't exactly progressive in their relations with African-Americans of the era, either. Their ambiguous and regularly changing stance towards slavery, for instance, was light years behind (again) Methodists and Quakers, both of which were the original American abolitionists.

The problem with the argument in this post is that is suggests things would have been worse if the ban had not been in place for 100+ years. That argument falls apart, though, when we see that many other religions of both the 19th and 20th centuries survived (and in the case of the Methodists, thrived) with quite progressive ideas and practices concerning racial equality.
6/12/2008 4:00 PM

#23: Jack

I think you're making some suppositions that may not be supportable by history. First off, I wonder if perhaps the examples you employ might be a rather small crossection of the total pre-war society--the larger being far less racially tolerant. And secondly (targeting your last paragraph), even if your examples are spot on it doesn't necessarily mean that Mormons would have behaved like the Quakers or the Shakers toward the blacks if there had been no priesthood restriction.
6/12/2008 9:41 PM

#24: Christopher

Jack, I'm working on a MA degree in history that focuses largely on antebellum Methodism. I'm no expert, but I'm fairly well-read in primary sources and secondary treatments of Methodism during that era in particular and American religion in general. What specific suppositions do you feel are "not supportable by history"?

The Methodists were the largest denomination in American in pre-Civil War America. 20% of all Christians by 1850 were Methodists. That seems to be a slightly larger sample than what you suggest is only a "rather small crossection." Even post-1844, when the Methodist Episcopal Church-South officially separated itself from their northern counterparts, they continued to admit as full members (and occasionally ordain to the ministry) African-Americans.

Your last sentence is confusing. Are you suggesting Mormons would have been more racist towards the blacks than the Methodists, Quakers, or others? If so, I don't see how that helps your case you've been making here.
6/13/2008 12:51 AM

#25: Jack

ell, between the two of us you're definitely an expert--no historian am I.

I think I've been talking past you (and JNS) a little. I'm suggesting that the prevailing attitude among most folks in those days was not one of throwing the doors open to the blacks. There was a general feeling of segregation--though, of course, some were working vigorously against it--such as the abolitionists and what-not. Even the numbers you give show that it was a relatively small minority that was open minded enough to mingle more with the blacks than the vast majority was willing to do.

And so, while you (and JNS) may have a point in suggesting that the Mormons might have done better in following the example of the Methodists, I don't think that proves anything. I don't think one can assume that the Mormons experienced the same social pressures as the Methodists, for example. When did the Methodists ever have an extermination order enforced against them? It's my opinion that the order leveled against the early Saints had as much to do with their stance against slavery as with anything else.

Plus there's the added problem of Latter-Day scripture. No doubt the BoM and PoGP had some influence on the early members with regard to racism and what-not--not that the scriptures themselves were the problem. It was the lens through which they were interpreted in those days--making it virtually impossible for them to easily throw off some of the cultural explanations for the exclusion of blacks.

And so this is what I was alluding to when I suggested that Mormons may not have been likely to treat blacks in the same way as the Quakers--if forsooth there had been no priesthood restriction.
6/14/2008 7:59 PM

#26: Jack

That's supposed to be "Well, between the two of us..."
6/14/2008 8:00 PM

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